Buddhists - Dalai Lama - India - Tibet
The Dalai Lama's demons
Friday 08 August 2008
The Dalai Lama is respected worldwide for his peaceful philosophy. Today, some exiled Tibetans, shunned by their peers, no longer believe in his leadership. A controversial buddhist deity lies at the heart of the dispute. (Report: C. Henry, N. Haque)
Special Report FRANCE 24 Special reportsFriday 08 August 2008
By FRANCE 24 (Text) / Capucine Henry and Nicolas Haque (video)Tibet’s exiled spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama, is revered as a hero by his people and respected world-wide for his peaceful philosophy. Today, however, there are cracks at the heart of his community. A minority of Tibetans exiled in India, including monks, no longer believe in his leadership, and are shunned by their peers. France 24 correspondents Capucine Henry and Nicolas Haque take a closer look into the widening rift that threatens to tear apart the Tibetan people.
In a hitherto peaceful village of Tibetan refugees in southern India, certain monks can no longer enter their monastery, and are banned from stores and public places, including hospitals. Their crime? Revering a god considered a demon by the Dalai Lama.
The controversial Buddhist deity of Dorje Shugden lies at the heart of the conflict. Considered by some as an enlightened tutelary deity and by others as a malevolent force, it was labeled a demon by the Dalai Lama himelf. He made this clear last January, in a speech imbued with rare violence at a Tibetan university in Southern India.
“I have meditated and considered (my decision to put aside the Shugden) at length in my soul and spirit before coming to the right decision”, he said. People have killed, lied, fought each other and set things alight in the name of this deity. These monks must be expelled from all monasteries. If they are not happy, you can tell them that the Dalai Lama himself asked that this be done, and it is very urgent.”
The speech was a historic moment in the history of Tibetan Buddhism, and the beginning of a schism which could exclude the four million Tibetans followers of Shugden. A few weeks after the Dalai Lama's speech, Shugden monks could no longer enter monasteries. They regroup themselves outside village walls and meditate on why the Dalai Lama has excluded him.
“Can the Dalai Lama really ban an entire religion?” asks one. “We are in the right, he’s the one who is being incoherent. On one hand, he’s always preaching freedom of religion and compassion, but on the other he’s forbidding us to worship the god we choose”, says another.
Photos of Shugden leaders are posted on city walls, branding them as traitors. Signs at the entrance of stores and hospitals forbid Shugden followers from entry. It’s apartheid, in Buddhist land.
Our reporters followed an ostracized Buddhist monk as he tried to affront the fellow villagers who have banned him. “We’re not violating Buddha’s teachings, and we’re excluded from everywhere just because of our religion” he complains.
“Aren’t you ashamed of betraying the Dalai Lama? You’re a monk! He is our only pillar, the only person we can count on,” he is asked.
In India, Shugden followers are forced to go into hiding. “I fled my house three days ago” says an old woman taken in by a family 300 kilometers away from her home. “I was the only Shugden in my village. Every day I grew more afraid of attacks.I had to block my door with stones for people not to break into my house”.
Behind this Shugden witch-hunt lies the fear of Chinese infiltration in the ranks of the Tibetan refugees. In the northern Indian city of Dharamsala, home of the Dalai Lama and the exiled Tibetan government, Shugden followers, with their open Chinese sympathies are considered a political threat.
“The Shugden and the Chinese are obviously allies,” says the Tibetan Prime Minister, professor Samdhong Rinpoche. “Their cults all over the world are financed by the Chinese”. He adds that “people are afraid of Shugden violence. They are like terrorists, they will stop at nothing, everyone knows this.” To prove his point, he shows our reporters the photo of the murder of a leading Buddhist monk and two of his disciples in 1997. Tibetans are certain the Shugden are behind the murder.
A leading Shugden figure, Mahalama Losbang Yechi, defends his links with the Chinese community: “I approve the Chinese presence in Tibet. What we are living with the Dalai Lama today shows how authoritarian his theocratic regime must have been in the past. It was much more violent than what Tibetans are living today under Chinese rule.”
Yechi has filed a lawsuit against the Dalai Lama in an Indian high court for religious persecution. He denies acting on the orders of Chinese authorities.
Shugden followers, willingly or not, have become the symbol of a schism that threatens the struggle for Tibetan autonomy. For that, thousands of refugees have begun to pay a price.
Pour aller plus loin
Pour aller plus loin
07/06/2009 17:54:05 Alert a moderator
Discrimination?
By Anonyme -
"According to Mike Wilson, cited above, Shugden devotees are most likely responsible for the ritualistic murders of three anti-Shugden clerics in Dharamsala in 1997. At the same time, the Shugden sect perpetually complains that it is the victim of religious discrimination, because the Dalai Lama does not permit observance of Shugden devotion.
The answer for the Shugden followers is obvious -- declare independence from all Tibetan Buddhist institutions and start your own sect. There is probably some reason why this isn't an acceptable solution for them, but I don't know what that reason would be."
http://buddhism.about.com/od/vajrayanabuddhism/a/shugden.htm
12/03/2009 18:12:31 Alert a moderator
Dictatorial ban
By Jimmy Marsden -
On this page you'll find links to independent documentaries and so on proving that a dictatorial and politcally-motivated ban of Dorje Shugden is in place: http://www.wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.org/dorjeshugden28.php. There you will also find links to the Swiss videos mentioned by the previous commentator. The interviews and footage on there speak for themselves, and speak a volume about the suffering that has been caused by this ban and destruction of a popular religious tradition.
Recently, the Swiss Die Weltwoche also examined the "legends of the Dalai Lama": http://wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.blogspot.com/2009/03/legends-of-dalai-la...
02/03/2009 23:18:05 Alert a moderator
BBC Documentary, Swiss Documentary & Tibet expert Barnett
By Anonyme -
There is a BBC Documentary about NKT/Shugden conflict called the Unholy Row. Swiss TV corrected their faults in the second part of a documentary dedicated to this subject matter.
http://www.tibetonline.tv/shugden_issues.html
With respect to the restrictions of worshipping a spirit in the monasteries, Tibet expert Robert Barnett of Columbia University stated:
"...since its form of spirit-worship is heterodox, provocative and highly sectarian in Buddhist terms and so more than likely to be banned from mainstream monasteries – while its claimed concerns about cases of discrimination in India should be addressed by working within the Tibetan community instead of opportunistically attacking the Dalai Lama in order to provoke misinformed publicity for their sect.”
http://www.tibetanreview.net/news.php?id=632&search_url=%2Fsearch.php%3F...
19/12/2008 03:37:07 Alert a moderator
Ten Reasons Dorje Shugden is a Buddha
By Lyara -
Two Christmas Presents for Dorje Shugden practitioners!
Ten Simple Reasons why Dorje Shugden is a Buddha
http://wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.blogspot.com/2008/12/ten-sim...
and
Some Thoughts on the History of a Practice
http://truthaboutshugden.wordpress.com/some-thoughts-on-the-...
Meanwhile, even non-Shugden practitioners just trying to get to the bottom of this problem by checking out articles on the Internet are coming to the inevitable conclusion that the Dalai Lama's ban is just wrong. Plain wrong. For example,
http://maramyfriend.blogspot.com/2008/12/dorje-shugden-part-...
http://mountainphoenixovertibet.blogspot.com/2008/10/evil-sp...
And there has been an increasing amount of press on the subject, for example:
France 24 : http://www.france24.com/en/20080808-dalai-lama-demons-india-...
Al Jazeera : http://www.wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.blogspot.com/2008/10/dal...
The Dalai Lama will not be able to get away with this for much longer, and religious freedom will be restored whether he likes it or not.
All we want from you for Christmas in 2008, Dalai Lama, is religious freedom.
05/11/2008 04:06:28 Alert a moderator
Compassion
By Thomas Canada - Cedar City/USA
Tenzin Gyatso Norbu might consider relocating the refugees in his charge to Alaska for their own sakes.
This would be a final act of some degree of compassion for his people. Rather than his own persistent role to perpetuate his own self glorification to misrepresent himself as the actaul head of anything. He is not the elected head of the TGIE, nor is he the head of Mahayanna Buddhism or it's Five Schools of Thought.
He is not a monk! He is a Grifter promoting his own Pinnocchio Politics and lies with the ease of a Mississippi Riverboat Gambler to suit his own agenda and delude the innocents.
Of a 1,000 dieties, Dalia lama harasses only one. Dorje Shugden!
Why would he do this? Unless he has an agenda.
This Dalia Lama has violated others Civil Rights in is quest to preserve his false lineage of the last 350 years. He came to power by the salughter of his opposition and the Mongolian Cavalry and became the 5th Dalia lama.
Now, he is Summoned to New Delhi High Courts.
I would retire if I were him and let Samdung take the heat.
Send the refugees to Alaska while you can!
04/11/2008 02:51:55 Alert a moderator
4 Million Tibetans practice Shugden?
By Anonyme -
As already stated this is an exaggeration. Now also Al Jazeera is confused and seem to have failed to contact Tibetan Buddhist specialists.
Now I could find a quote from a former press article from 1997:
"The figure of four million worshippers is grass exaggeration, experts estimating the figure to actually be around 100,000 or less than 2% of the Tibetan population, a large proportion of whom abandoned propitiation of the deity after the Dalai Lamas pronouncements."
The complete article can be read here:
http://www.newkadampa.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=37&I...
Williams, Professor of Indian and Tibetan Philosophy, states:
“The Dalai Lama is trying to modernize the Tibetans’ political vision and trying to undermine the factionalism. He has the dilemma of the liberal: do you tolerate the intolerant?”
http://www.tibet.com/dholgyal/CTA-book/chapter-5-4.html
France 2 TV made a contribution which is quite fair:
http://envoye-special.france2.fr/index-fr.php?page=reportage-bonus&id_ar...
Also the articles by Tricycle and comment section maybe helpful:
http://blog.tricycle.com/?p=741
Best Wishes.
27/10/2008 01:03:13 Alert a moderator
Dalai Lama's religious persecution!
By Religious Freedom - UK
The Human Right's abuses of the Dorje Shugden practitioner’s are very real! The truth is coming out! Check out the most recent coverage (01/10/2008) by the award winning TV station Al Jazeera called 'The Dalai Lama; the devil within':
http://english.aljazeera.net/programmes/peopleandpower/2008/09/200893014...
The evidence is there - if you care to look!
26/10/2008 23:38:16 Alert a moderator
Challenge
By Thom Canadsa - Cedar City/USA
Challenge
Be Reasonable Robert Thurman
Debate This Schism !
With Freedom Loving People !
We've Thrown Down the Gauntlet
To you,Robert Thurman !
You've been challenged to defend your lies!
You have not replied to us, the WSS on the 24th of October, 2008.
Therefore, you are all the things we've said of you, and you Robert Thurman are a Liar and Traitor to the Principles of Democracy and the dharma.
We are not all perfect beings! This defintely includes all of you. Especially Tenzin Gyatso Norbu {dalia lama},SanDung and Robert Thurman.
We realize, that Tenzin Gyatso Norbu is a deceitful self cherishing incarnate of a Feudal War Lord. Who slaughtered his own people to seize and maintain control of the different approaches to the Teachngs Of Lord Buddha.
We realize that Tenzin Gyatso Norbu is the antithesis of a man who tramps daily by his ignorance attempting to undermine the Foundation of Our Founding Fathers creation of the Bill Of Rights for the Civil Liberties of the People.
The Dharma Flourishes because it has a home, that respects and protects the rights of all to believe as we choose.
This schism has only magnified Dalia lama's abbhorrence of individual thought to reason and find the way to the truth that Lord Buddha taught to us.
Dalia Lama prefers to lie and deceive and use the mouthpiece of Bob Thurman to validate his claims, he actually speaks the truth.
TGIE has no weapons to use against the Western Shugden Society,{WSS},or any of us! Except their Three Monkey Tribunal mimicking the Grifter, Tenzin Gyatso, Pinnocchiio Politics.
They lie and cheat and are cowards as we have said, "they will not reply to the WSS Challenge to step forward and defend themselves".
24/10/2008 03:04:30 Alert a moderator
Is the Dalai Lama who we think he is?
By Religious freedom - World
Ever thought about why the Dalai Lama is acting in very unholy and un-Buddhist ways- even though he is supposed to be a re-incarnation of Avalokiteshvara -the Buddha of compassion? Is it possible that perhaps he is not the re-incarnation of Buddha of Compassion? Yes it is possible! Is it possible that the Shangri-la was never the Shangri-la westerners thought it was? Yes it is possible!
Perhaps the Dalai Lama is not really the Dalai Lama? Check out this really interesting article called 'Reting Lama - How he chose the false Dalai Lama'. Explains a hell of lot!
Here is the web address;
http://www.westernshugdensociety.org...lse-dalai-lama
If that is a possibility - then it is also possible that the Dalai Lama's actions and behaviour are completely contradictory to Buddhism or even to humanity! Check out this excellent article by Ron cook called 'Six principal reasons why the Dalai Lama is not a Buddhist' on http://www.westernshugdensociety.org...not-a-buddhist.
It is hard to accept but the evidence is there if you care to look!
23/10/2008 20:37:07 Alert a moderator
Dalai Lama Give Religious Freedom!
By Duldzin - World
Millions of Buddhist across the world carry out the practice of an ancient well loved prayer to the Buddhist Deity Dorje Shugden.
The Dalai Lama has illegally banned this prayer even though he himself practiced it for most of his life and was taught to him by his Spiritual Guide before him. Since banning the prayer in 1996, the Dalai Lama has set about instigating and endorsing a series of non-democratic and vehement campaigns toward Shugden practitioners causing tremendous pain and great schisms within the Buddhist community worldwide.
His campaign has intensified since January this year when over a 1000 monks were unconstitutionally expelled from their monasteries, Tibetans-in-exile were forcibly intimidated to engage in public signature and swearing campaigns, and since which Shugden devotees have experienced having identity cards and visa applications withheld, they have been denied basic needs and necessities such as food, water and medical assistance, and there have been instances of thuggish attacks against persons and arson against their property simply because they wish to maintain their spiritual beliefs.
The Dalai Lama continues to campaign for support to seek religious freedom from the Chinese. Yet, millions of Shugden practitioners worldwide are also seeking religious freedom - from the Dalai Lama.
05/10/2008 18:33:15 Alert a moderator
Using Political Power to Interfere with Religion is Wrong
By Lyara -
It doesn't matter how long we all debate the religious polemics of Dorje Shugden. None of this debate alters the fact that the political ban on Dorje Shugden is very wrong.
Please check out this article by a non-Shugden, non-NKT Tibetan woman who is interested in the cause of Tibet — she seems to have hit the nail on the head.
http://mountainphoenixovertibet.blogspot.com/2008/10/evil-spirit-puts-ti...
One extract: “The way Tibetans have been handling the Dholgyal/Shugden issue says quite a bit about the state of our democratic values. We Tibetans are okay with dissenters being forced into obedience. We see nothing wrong with this political style. We have no issues with the Dalai Lama exerting pressure on dissenters by using secular government organs and tolerating oaths and signature actions in his name. Some even believe it is their duty to expose Dholgyal/Shugden supporters and slander them.
Until recently I thought, the more we talk about this conflict, the worse it becomes. I have changed my mind. I know now that it is wrong to remain silent. All genuine Tibetan democrats must speak up in the political debate over Dholgyal/Shugden. When a few are forced to take on the view of many, we’re going down a dangerous path. It is our duty to speak up. Our young democracy will remain in bad shape if we let this happen without a reaction.”
And this is a good article on the subject as well. Before Anonyme, Delhi dismisses us for 'becoming a teacher in one day" (not sure what that means), it'd be great if you could check out these kinds of articles that are coming out now:
http://wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.blogspot.com/2008/10/mixing-religion-and...
04/10/2008 14:26:03 Alert a moderator
Give chance for peace now
By Anonyme - Delhi/India
Hello Lyara,
Don’t acts like a student who becomes teacher in a day. Observe the situation, listen from different sources and make your judgement. Please don’t write instigating remarks. It simply reflects your immaturity.
Please do that for peace’s sake.
03/10/2008 17:55:54 Alert a moderator
Terrorist bombing by Dalai Lama monks continued
By Lyara -
Although Robert Thurman has falsely accused Shugden practitioners of being the Taliban of Tibetan Buddhism, there is no proof that any Shugden practitioner has ever been engaged in acts of terrorism. However, this is more clear proof that certain followers of the Dalai Lama -- and monks at that -- are no better than terrorists.
Thankfully, this time, no one was hurt; but, as Shugden practitioners have been pointing out, they are constantly subject to persecution and violence due to the Dalai Lama's repressive ban, and it is only a matter of time before one of them is killed.
The Dalai Lama and his government need to ask themselves some hard questions, including why monks loyal to them are engaged in such acts of pre-meditated violence and how an innocent Dorje Shugden practitioner could come to be the target of such violence.
03/10/2008 17:54:51 Alert a moderator
Newsflash -- Dalai Lama monks bomb Shugden residence
By Lyara -
(I got this from the Wisdom Buddha Dorje Shugden blog, which has posted a great deal of new information on this whole subject over the last week or two.)
http://www.wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.blogspot.com/
Earlier this year, Tibetan terrorists bombed the residence of a Dorje Shugden practitioner. Check out the news article in Radio Free Asia
http://www.rfa.org/english/news/tibet/tibetans-10022008095355.html
'Terrorist actions'
The security official said: "They carried out terrorist actions...If they don't appeal, they will be taken to Kongpo for imprisonment 10 days after sentencing. None had lodged an appeal by Sept. 30."
What makes this particularly horrible is that these terrorists were supposedly Buddhist monks, training in monasteries!
Moreover, the actions of these monks were clearly motivated by allegiance to the Dalai Lama, the supposed champion of peace and non-violence:
"No one was hurt in the blasts, three of which occurred at a Chinese military base camp, one at the Markham county office, three at an electric power transmission station, and one at the residence of a Tibetan who worships Shugden, a controversial deity espoused by Beijing but regarded with suspicion by those loyal to the Dalai Lama."
The followers of the Dalai Lama cannot blame this one on Chinese sympathizers trying to stir up trouble because three of the bombings were at Chinese military base camps.
01/10/2008 18:54:22 Alert a moderator
Al Jazeera video and news article on this same subject
By Tenzin -
Check out this footage on the Dalai Lama's ban of Dorje Shugden shown yesterday to a potential audience of 40 million. Bits of it are similar to France 24 coverage, bits are different -- I wonder though whether the France 24 footage gave them the idea.
Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqON2lxArek
News article:
http://english.aljazeera.net/programmes/peopleandpower/2008/...
One interesting point made by the lawyer is that the main reason the legal case against the Dalai Lama was delayed three months was because the Dalai Lama said he was sick/exhausted. Is it possible that the Dalai Lama was throwing off his European teaching engagements to delay the troublesome court case rather than because he was actually exhausted?
28/09/2008 04:46:00 Alert a moderator
Dalai Lama's Reason's Still Covered Up
By akhutonpa - Tibet/USA
The Dalai Lama's reasons for regarding Shugdenism as anti-Buddhism still has not been posted, despite France 24's claim of "historic speech" transcription.
Come, on! France 24! Post the real, undoctored words of the Dalai Lama, and then the Shugdenists can have a rational basis for their anti-Dalai Lama campaign.
27/09/2008 14:43:40 Alert a moderator
Lacking Logic
By Anonyme - Canada
The Dalai Lama is suppressing religious freedom, and is the only person who can put an end to the ostracizing and vilifying of Dorje Shugden practitioners around the world.
The DL governments main arguments portrayed in this video are absurd. No court of law has found a Dorje Shugden practitioner responsible for the murder of those monks. Although brutal and terrible, even if it were a deranged Dorje Shugden practitioner who committed those horrible acts, it does not follow that all Dorje Shugden practitioners are murderers or wish to harm non-DS Lamas.
Same with the accusations linking Dorje Shugden practitioners with the Chinese. Dorje Shugden practitioners are not asking for political freedom, they are asking for religious freedom. If one or more happen to have political sympathy for China, it does not follow that the main thrust of the request for religious freedom is some sort of Chinese plot to destroy the DL.
Although the Dharma that comes from Tibet is exceptionally beautiful, and is the Dharma that I choose to practice, Dharma itself is not restricted by culture or country. It is exactly grasping at culture and country and self over other that Dharma seeks to heal -- because Buddha taught that such grasping always leads to suffering. The argument that says Dorje Shugden practitioners are harming the political cause of the Tibetans is ridiculous....it is the Dalai Lama's own intolerance that is causing the harm.
23/09/2008 05:20:38 Alert a moderator
France 24 Does Not Correct "Historic" Lie
By akhutonpa - Tibet/usa
Through out this report the Tibetans words do not correspond to the purported translation of the narrator. In the so-called "historic speech" the Dalai Lama's audible words start: Chor-tang la... mi sed sa sed = In the (Shugden prayer?) recitation... where humans are to be killed, kill..." As I have repeatedly requested, post the full (not the garbled snippets and jump cuts) and I will provide, for free, a word for word translation.
Regarding Lo(mind)sang(good/kind Ye(primordial)she (wisdom)--lobsang yeshe rather than the unTibetan Losbang Yechi, also a name indicative of Gelugpa sect--whether he was the offspring of a Chinese and Tibetan union in Kalimpong and defrocked for Vinaya violation can be easily determined. That some prominent Shugdenists engaged in vinaya violations and buggery, I speak from personal knowledge-- of course this does not mean that all Shugdenists act thusly. To Shugdenist members of Gedun (presence of virtue/Sangha) who keep their vows, my criticism does not apply since I refer to the litigants.
If any Tibetan has a copy of the Dalai Lama's "historic" speech to Shugdenists, please post so that France 24 can see what an accurate translation is.
20/09/2008 23:48:09 Alert a moderator
Tibetans fundraising - not PRC funds!
By Mahayana Disciple -
Check out this link - this 'Tibet Fest' is held by Tibetan Shugden practitioners and proceeds 'benefit a spiritual lineage that's under threat of extinction' There are many other ways in which funds are donated and raised in order to support Shugden supporters and the demonstrations. http://citybeat.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid:146102
18/09/2008 11:18:11 Alert a moderator
Wrong=Wrong, simple logic
By Anonyme - Delhi/India
Dalai Lama’s action hurts no one. His action for world peace and harmony is matchless to any world leaders. It is people’s wrong action that put themself in problems.
18/09/2008 10:53:51 Alert a moderator
Re: Learn from history
By Anonyme -
It is not a good time to ask for, what your government can do for you. It is a right time to ask what you can do for your country.
18/09/2008 10:11:19 Alert a moderator
Re: Others before self
By Anonyme - Delhi/India
In business point of view: These people seem have find only two options to earn money and make their living in west, 1) Mystifying the western by showing some other option or tradition that is new to the western world. 2) Challenging Dalai Lama: by choosing the tradition which is against by Dalai Lama is very unique and innovative. But, the question is how much this Tibetan tradition will help or discourse for Tibetan cause? And is this shugden tradition will really benefit westerns? If so how?
18/09/2008 05:05:00 Alert a moderator
Not interesting
By Anonyme -
It's not interesting at all. It is completely one-sided, does not even bother to interview someone else for the other point of view. And the "academic expert" is a student of a Shugden lama - hardly a neutral source. I hope people will write the newspaper for a more balanced article.
18/09/2008 03:41:02 Alert a moderator
Cincinnati City Beat reports on the problem
By Tenzin -
Here is a very interesting news article about the problem today:
http://citybeat.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid:146102
The Dalai Lama hasn't simply discouraged honoring Dorje Shugden. Declaring the deity an evil spirit, he's vowed to crush the tradition.
The Tibetan Government in Exile denies identity cards to Tibetan nationals who refuse to sign oaths renouncing the deity, leaving them unable to travel, hold jobs or receive aid, according to Lisa Farnsworth, a law professor at Indiana University. Monks who hold fast to their loyalty to Dorje Shugden have been expelled from monasteries, she says, and others have been denied food or barred from participating in prayer rituals.
"We're talking about basic human rights -- being able to eat, being able to have housing, (not) having your life threatened," Farnsworth says. "You can talk about love and compassion all you want, but people are being hurt by the Dalai Lama's actions."
18/09/2008 01:30:50 Alert a moderator
Some inaccuracies
By Anonyme -
Inaccurate statements on this page:
The speech was a historic moment in the history of Tibetan Buddhism, and the beginning of a schism which could exclude the four million Tibetans followers of Shugden.
-4 million is a ridiculously high number.Nor is this a historic moment, there have been more serious schisms in Tibetan history
He made this clear last January, in a speech imbued with rare violence at a Tibetan university in Southern India.
-Violence? He called for the monks to be ousted from the monastery. He never called on anyone to behave violently. I listened to the speech myself.
What we are living with the Dalai Lama today shows how authoritarian his theocratic regime must have been in the past. It was much more violent than what Tibetans are living today under Chinese rule."
-this is obviously ridiculous, I don't think any neutral person in their right mind believes this.
Shugden monks could no longer enter monasteries
-Incorrect, they could enter the monasteries to get to their dorms and temples. They aren't allowed into the large assembly halls and temples, but have their own monastic complexes.
True Statements on the page:
leading Shugden figure, Mahalama Losbang Yechi, defends his links with the Chinese community: "I approve the Chinese presence in Tibet
-Here LY sells out Shugden followers in a crass alliance with the Chinese
- Shugden followers, with their open Chinese sympathies are considered a political threat
True.
17/09/2008 01:51:08 Alert a moderator
wierd
By Anonyme -
i actually just want to read the comments but can't figure out how to without posting a message... more wisdom blessings for me please!
16/09/2008 19:56:20 Alert a moderator
Clear responses to France 24 documentary
By Tenzin -
Once again, thank you France 24 for bringing this issue to the public attention.
On www.wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.blogspot.com today, there are some very interesting and well-informed comments made about this documentary.
16/09/2008 04:22:19 Alert a moderator
What Dorje Shugden practitioners are up against
By Geoff -
The hostility that Dorje Shugden practitioners are up against from Tibetan followers of the Dalai Lama is evinced in that last insulting, insensitive and crude comment by akhutonpa Tibet/usa. I am surprised the moderator allowed this playground comment through but it does help show the problem so perhaps it is a good thing.
14/09/2008 05:18:08 Alert a moderator
Dalai Lama Libeled; Chinese Agent Unchallenged
By akhutonpa - Tibet/usa
His Holiness the Dalai Lama, was imposed the burden of religious and political leadership of Tibet when he was a child. Unlike so many political or religious leaders, the Dalai Lama has remained true to his duties--to the displeasure of Chinese and anti-Buddhist forces.
France 24 TV broadcast a socalled "historic speech" of the Dalai Lama to Shugden worshippers which does not correspond to anything audible of the words of the Dalai Lama. I have repeatedly requested France 24 to post the full and audible audio of the Dalai Lama's "historic speech" to ensure its historic authenticity. To no avail!!!
Second: a defrocked half-breed Tibetan who has found favor with his Chinese ancestery, has made outrageous statements (in English--so there is no question of translation problem) to promote Chinese communist occupation of Tibet: Tibetan refugee camps were established as non-profit cooperative societies with membership rules; Tibetan refugees were granted refugee status and an Identity Card as granting politcal asylum on the notion that Chinese Communist occupation of Tibet was unjust and inhumane: since this Shugden leader states that Chinese Communist rule is good and better than living in Tibetan refugee camps his refugee status must therefore be null and void. The issue of vinaya violations and buggery can be left for the Indian court to decide.
11/09/2008 12:15:16 Alert a moderator
Responding to 'neutral Western academic researchers' - Part II
By dspak08 - Geneva, Switzerland
To respond specifically to your 7 points.
1. Calling somebody a ‘fundamentalist’ is a modern way of engaging in religious slander. It is true that Je Phabongkhapa did encourage his followers to follow one tradition purely without mixing, but this is not fundamentalism, rather it is just a method of practice. One that is done in all major religions. There are some who like to mix traditions, and others who like to follow their own tradition purely without mixing while respecting all other traditions. To label all those who want to follow their own tradition purely without mixing as being ‘fundamentalist’ is itself ‘fundamentalism’ because it arrogantly declares that the mixing method of practicing is ‘superior’ and all those who do not practice in this way are ‘fanatics.’ This is creating a ‘sect’ of the supposed ‘non-sectarian’.
2. The Yellow Book has long been discredited as nothing other than a collection of superstitious tales, where anybody who stubs their toe thinks they are being punished by some unseen being. All of the subsequent lamas have renounced this book. If the Dalai Lama had done the same, then there would be nobody in this world saying there is any truth to this book, and it would fade away into incognito, as just another book amongst millions sitting on some random library shelf. But because the Dalai Lama believes himself in such superstitions, in paranoid reaction he has made this book far more prominent than it would otherwise be. Nobody would have ever heard of this book or developed irrational fear about its contents if the Dalai Lama and his supporters did not keep referring to it. So who is to blame for any fear generated by its contents? Besides, surely a book written 30 years ago cannot be the basis for the ever-tightening of religious persecution today. If something must be done about this book, surely the solution would be to ‘ban the book’, not ‘ban the religious practice’.
3. Tibetans themselves are quite superstitious. Since they have been injected with superstitions by the Dalai Lama who for decades has been saying that Dorje Shugden is a vengeful, evil spirit, is there any wonder that Tibetans are afraid of him. People are afraid of Dorje Shugden because of what the Dalai Lama has said about him, not anything that Dorje Shugden himself has done.
4.Points 4, 5, 6 and 7 are all refuted in Part I of my comments.