Yes Lyara, this is a good question. Will it ever stop? Will the Western Shugden Society or NKT ever stop their propaganda machine? It is striking how you they reject neutral academic researches and how you and the members of NKT believe more the propaganda and libellous content of self-created anonymous internet sites. It is your freedom to do that and it is my freedom to reject your and WSS/NKT's propaganda. What you see as "the truth" is your truth. I don't share it.

Where is France 24's journalism standards? France 24's Shugden tainted mistranslation of the Dalai Lama's dialog with Shugdenists needs to be corrected and France 24 needs to get different reporters to do a follow up. France 24 can start with an investigative piece on the murder of Geshe Lobsang Gyatso. Chinese Communist Party starting from the mass murderer Mao ran a disinformation campaign against Tibetan people, culture, religion and the Dalai Lama. Tibetan Prime Minister Samdhong Rinpoche stated on record that Shugdenists were collaborating with CCP. Of course this does not mean that all shugdenists are. But in the name of decency and truth correct yr fake quotes.

According to his followers Shugden worship promotes peace and harmony. But neutral academic research draws a quite different picture of that practice.

Here some quotes and information from neutral Western academic researchers:

1. The religious scientist Karénina Kollmar-Paulenz (Prof. at the University of Bern, Swiss) refers to the main propagator of that practice, Pabongkha Rinpoche, as a "religious fundamentalist".

2. British Researcher Mills, Senior Lecturer in the Anthropology of Religion, University of Aberdeen, stated “in defence of the deity’s efficacy as a protector, [the Yellow Book by Zemey Rinpoche] named 23 government officials and high lamas that had been assassinated using the deity’s powers."

3. Anthropologist Stanley Mumford stated Dorje Shugden is “extremely popular, but held in awe and feared among Tibetans because he is highly punitive.”

4. Prof. Goeffrey Samuel Samuel, Director of Cardiff Humanities Research Institute, stated Pabongkha Rinpoche was a "strict purist and conservative", who "adopted an attitude of sectarian intolerance" and "instituted a campaign to convert non-Gelug gompa (monasteries) in Kham to the Gelugpa school, by force where necessary."

5. Researcher Kay stated "...and in response to the Rimé movement (ris med) that had originated and was flowering in that region, Pabongkha Rinpoche (a Gelug agent of the Tibetan government) and his disciples employed repressive measures against non-Gelug sects. Religious artefacts associated with Padmasambhava — who is revered as a 'second Buddha' by Nyingma practitioners — were destroyed, and non-Gelug, and particularly Nyingma, monasteries were forcibly converted to the Gelug position. A key element of Pabongkha Rinpoche's outlook was the cult of the protective deity Dorje Shugden, which he married to the idea of Gelug exclusivism and employed against other traditions as well as against those within the Gelug who had eclectic tendencies."

6. To show the sectarian nature of the Shugden practice Prof. Dreyfus quotes Pabongka Rinpoche from an introduction to the text of the empowerment required to propitiate Shugden:

"[This protector of the doctrine] is extremely important for holding Dzong-ka-ba's tradition without mixing and corrupting [it] with confusions due to the great violence and the speed of the force of his actions, which fall like lightning to punish violently all those beings who have wronged the Yellow Hat Tradition, whether they are high or low. [This protector is also particularly significant with respect to the fact that] many from our own side, monks or lay people, high or low, are not content with Dzong-ka-ba's tradition, which is like pure gold, [and] have mixed and corrupted [this tradition with ] the mistaken views and practices from other schools, which are tenet systems that are reputed to be incredibly profound and amazingly fast but are [in reality] mistakes among mistakes, faulty, dangerous and misleading paths. In regard to this situation, this protector of the doctrine, this witness, manifests his own form or a variety of unbearable manifestations of terrifying and frightening wrathful and fierce appearances. Due to that, a variety of events, some of them having happened or happening, some of which have been heard or seen, seem to have taken place: some people become unhinged and mad, some have a heart attack and suddenly die, some [see] through a variety of inauspicious signs [their] wealth, accumulated possessions and descendants disappear without leaving any trace, like a pond whose feeding river has ceased, whereas some [find it] difficult to achieve anything in successive lifetimes."

7. researcher Kay states that Trijang Rinpoche (1900-1981), one of Pabongkha Rinpoche's famous disciples, had a more moderate view on other traditions than Pabongkha, nevertheless "he continued to regard the deity (Dorje Shugden) as a severe and violent punisher of inclusively orientated Gelug practitioners."

Shugden followers have only one researcher who seems to support their view, Bernis. But her work is neither published by any academic publisher nor is it accepted among scientists. No research on that subject uses her work as a source.

Online there are two acknowledged academic researches available:

1. The Shuk-Den Affair: Origins of a Controversy by George Dreyfus, Associate Professor of Religion at Williams College published in Journal of the International Association of Buddhist Studies)(Vol., 21, no. 2 [1998]:227-270)
http://dalailama.com/page.149.htm

2. The Tulkus and the Shugden Controversy (2001) by Religious Scientist Prof. Dr. Michael von Brück (Ludwig Maximilan University Munich, Germany) published by Oxford University Press
http://www.info-buddhismus.de/dorje_shugden_controversy.html

A summery on Shugden which used different academic researches or press articles can be found here:
http://info-buddhism.com/dorje_shugden_controversy.html

Also this article may be helpful: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2096/is_1_49/ai_54482231/print

This argument is going round in circles insofar as all these comments have been made and answered previously, but I guess that is the nature of blogging. To answer the previous poster, anonyme,

"Westerners need to understand Tibetan culture well and then it better to take their best jugement who is right and who is wrong doers. It is not right to define Tibetans practices in western terms."

It is true that Tibet is a theocracy, which would never be acceptable in the West. The West has separated religion out from politics for the benefit of both. Never would a Western leader be permitted to ban a religious practice -- on the contrary, they have to defend the rights of their citizens, even the minorities. This is something that the Dalai Lama and his followers would do well to heed if they wish to maintain the status quo of the theocracy of the Dalai Lama, as this ban of Dorje Shugden is backfiring badly on the public reputation of the Dalai Lama.

"Actually, it is not difficult to give up this practice of Shugden."

Actually, it is very hard because this practice was passed down for 400 years through our masters and has immense benefits in our daily life for helping us increase our Dharma realizations of love, compassion and wisdom. We do not want to give it up and nor should we have to. This is wrong.

"But, it is upto the devotees what they like to follow. The master has given a good guidance but, it is upto the follower wisdom to judge. His holiness is too concern and compassionate about the life of these practioners. So he has shown his genuine love to them like their parents. But they misunderstood and make that a big issue."
There are now videos and reports galore of the Dalai Lama's and Samdhong Rinpoche's actual words on the subject, very clearly banning the practice not just advising against it, including the Dalai Lama's words in this France 24 footage. Please see http://aboutwss.org for example. Also, see http://www.WisdomBuddhaDorjeShugden.blogspot.com today for footage on how the double oath against practising Dorje Shugden and associating in any way with those who do not give it up has even spread into Switzerland and the West. It is all on there for you to read. There is no longer any way to deny that there is a ban and that there is persecution of those who continue to practice their beliefs.

" For the westerner, who have rational mind need to understand whether this spirit worship is a Buddhist religion or not."

Yes, with our rational minds we have decided that our reliance upon the Wisdom Buddha Dorje Shugden is not spirit worship and is very much part of our Buddhist practice. We are not swayed by superstition, no matter how many dough balls the Dalai Lama throws in the air or oracles he consults that tell him that Dorje Shugden is a Chinese demon.

" And is right to say there is no religious freedom for exile Tibetans."

I agree with you here. This is not the fault of the Indian government, who grant religious freedom to all, but of the Dalai Lama and his government taking away the religious freedom of Dorje Shugden practitioners.

"Such baseless support makes things tenser and worsen instead of given good solutions."

The good solution here would be simply for the Dalai Lama to admit he was wrong on this issue and to lift the ban.

"I am not surprise when these practioners shown lot of loyalty to the CCP who subjugated our father land Tibet. Because they are feed like dogs by CCP, so they stimuli to the response like dogs. This is very a natural characteristics of dog but, I feel sad when people with good knowledge of its own history betray us at such crucial time has no name then DOGS."

So now the insults, again. If you scroll through the messages, you'll see abundant postings showing that Dorje Shugden practitioners are not Chinese agents. Tibetan Dorje Shugden practitioners love their country as much as you do. It does not follow that to oppose the Dalai Lama you must be on the payroll of the Chinese. This is an old, tired accusation with no basis in fact.

Please look at the first comments made on this thread just after France 24 aired their footage -- there is a wealth of information there.

Westerners need to understand Tibetan culture well and then it better to take their best jugement who is right and who is wrong doers. It is not right to define Tibetans practices in western terms. Actually, it is not difficult to give up this practice of Shugden. But, it is upto the devotees what they like to follow. The master has given a good guidance but, it is upto the follower wisdom to judge. His holiness is too concern and compassionate about the life of these practioners. So he has shown his genuine love to them like their parents. But they misunderstood and make that a big issue. For the westerner, who have rational mind need to understand whether this spirit worship is a Buddhist religion or not. And is right to say there is no religious freedom for exile Tibetans. Such baseless support makes things tenser and worsen instead of given good solutions.
I am not surprise when these practioners shown lot of loyalty to the CCP who subjugated our father land Tibet. Because they are feed like dogs by CCP, so they stimuli to the response like dogs. This is very a natural characteristics of dog but, I feel sad when people with good knowledge of its own history betray us at such crucial time has no name then DOGS.

Shabdrung Ngawang Namgyal (1594-1651) was a Tibetan lama who unified Bhutan. He is believed to have been reborn successively, and each of his successors is known as the Shabdrung.

He was a claimant to the position of Gyalwang Drukpa, the traditional leader of the Drukpa Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism. However, the same claim was raised by the crown prince of Tsang, Pagsam Wangpo (1593-1641). Ngawang Namgyal was attacked time and again and some of his men were killed. Dealing with these attacks, he became experienced in warfare.

He realised that his life at Ralung, the headquarters of the Drukpa Kagyu, was not be safe. So, in 1616, at the age of 23, he travelled to Bhutan with his men. There, he received high respect and honour.

Reasons for the journey to Bhutan
Most of the historians, writing on Shabdrung describe that the main causes of Shabdrung's arrival to Bhutan was only to save his life. The following reasons have been suggested:

1. The conflict over the rival claims to be the Gyalwang Drukpa made his life at Ralung unsafe.

2. Losing his base at Ralung meant that Ngawang Namgyal needed to find a new home from which to promote his religious cause.

3. Ngawang Namgyal brought a number of artifacts with him from Ralung, and needed to find a home into to protect them.

4. Hoptso Lam, a Bhutanese leader, wanted to strengthen the Drukpa Kagyu locally. He decided that supporting Ngawang Namgyal would help toward this end. Therefore, he invited Ngawang Namgyal to come to Bhutan.

5. It is said that Ngawang Namgyal dreamt of a black raven flying southward into Bhutan and he took this as a supernatural sign.

6. It is said that he was invited by two deities in a dream to travel to Bhutan and rule there.

7. Ngawang Namgyal's ancestors had some renown in Bhutan.

After Ngawang Namgyal reached Bhutan, he had a relatively easy time establishing a unified state there. This was the beginning of Bhutan as an integrated polity.

Unification, invasions and suppression.

History of world says there are very less heroes who had toiled for the unification of their country. Among them Ashoka of India, Prithvi Narayan Shah of Nepal, Karl Marx of Russia are some who led the foundation of greater countries. Shabdrung Ngawang Namgyal of Bhutan can be compared to these heroes in the work of unifying the country.

Gorkha tour (an old principality in Nepal)

Shabdrung was driven out of Tibet by the Tsang power. This attack never ended though he left Ralung, Tibet. He felt that his unification works seemed to be weak in Bhutan. So, his mind was diverted to the strong, simple and dedicated Gorkhalis. It was not only in this time that Gurkhalis entered Bhutan, but most the present Bhutanese of Nepali ethnicity had come Bhutan long before writes Devi Bhakta Lamitarey in his book “Dankindo Bhutan”. Bipin writes that Ram Shah contributed 40-50 families to Shabdrung having done agreement in the gold plates. These families were being led by Bishnu Thapa. In the agreement, Ram Shah declared, till the kingdom of Drukpa remains, you be there protecting the territory of Palden Drukpa and extending the calm relationship of Drukpa with Hindu. These people from Gorkha were settled from the east of Teesta to the western Thaga province (Kalimpong Dangsang area).3 On the same visit, it is said that he also visited Kathmandu and asked some artists and craftmen from Shiva Simha Malla. These people from Gorkha and Nepal (Kathmandu) had contributed in the construction of dzongs, temples, monastaries and protecting the sovereignty of the nation. It is true that most of the crafts, dzongs, temples and idols found in Bhutan are the contribution of hard, loyal and dedicated workers, the Bhutanese of Nepali origin. It was from that time the tradition of lighting thousand lamps in Swayambhunath by the Bhutanese lamas was inaugurated. The names of those lamas who rendered this service were listed already.

Tibetan Invasions

Tibetans first attacked in 1617, soon after Shabdrung entered Bhutan. It was because of the jealousy of the Tsang Deb over the popularity Shabdrung had been gainig in Bhutan. Though Shabdrung had entered Bhutan just before only, the unity of people exited there managed to repulse the invasion. In the spot the commander of the Tibetan Force was smashed, killed.

Having the first invasions successfully repulsed, Shabdrung had tied the friendship with Gorkha. As the situation of the country was politically deteriorating, he was in need of strong force which Ghorkhali shown. He asked fifty families to Ram Shah for its purpose which was already discussed.

In 1629 two incidents occurred in Bhutan simultaneously; the visit of two Portuguese and attack of Lam Kha Nga (Lhapas, Nenyingpas, Barawas, Kathogpas and Chazampas). The Jesuit priests Estevan Cacela and Joas Cabral, as Bikram writes, had given few guns, gun powder and one telescope to Shabdrung.

All these indicate that Shabdrung managed to overcome the opposition with the materials given by Jesuit priests. Tibetan invasions continued in these following years: 1634, 1639, 1644, 1647, 1648 and 1649. In 1644 combine force of Mongol and Tibet attacked Bhutan. This invasion was ordered by Gushri Khan of Mongolia. The invasion of Gushri Khan differs from historians, Sushil Manandhar mentioned the year as 1644 and Bikram mentioned that the attacked was made in 1643. These differences conclude that the time of invasion might be in December-January, 1643-44.

The millitia of Gushri Khan was led by Dalai Lama V, who was nominated as the spritiual and temporal head of the Tibet and proclaimed the Gelukpa or the followers of Yellow Hat Sect to be the national religion of the land of Tibet. This combined force was also repulsed by the Bhutanese force. The repulsion of the first invasion of Tibet of 1617 and the battle of Dunsa Drug Chhoeding itself, the popularity Shabdrung expanded. In that battle, he was said to have used his miracles to defeat his adversary. This incident proves, because of the people from Gorkha, Shabdrung’s supremacy was gained in Bhutan as well as in neighbouring countries.

In the Tibetan reverse in 1639 led by Pagsam Wangpo, second cousin of Dalai Lama V, Bhutanese were able to defeat the force. The defeat of Tibetan established Shabdrung's strong supremacy in Bhutan. In this attacked also, people from Gorkha and Kathmandu, who were sent there, rendered loyal service to the country for the protection of sovereignty as directed by Ram Shah during their departure.

All these encouraged Bhutanese to establish a sovereign and independent nation. From that time onwards Bhutanese dignity was lightened as the result of Bhutanese unity and unity among Hinduism and Buddhism.

Ngachudrugma

After the successful repulsion of first Tibetan invasion of 1617, Shabdrung left for visit to Tango Monastery in upper Thimphu valley. He was still anxious that Tsang Deb might be preparing for attack. He offerred prayer to Gurdian deities and offered secred rituals which he thought would overcome the Tsang Deb. Soon he heard the news that Tsang Deb and his wife both died. It was the exact time historians focused that Shabdrung wrote his famous poem ‘Ngachudrugma’. It is the collection of 16-line poetry, which revels the amazing extent of his power and greatness. Bikramjit writes, the poem was composed during 1639, which seems to be incorrect as Shabdrung in that time was completely busy to prepare the structure of Choesi, which was formally announced in 1651 AD. The English version of the poem ‘Ngachudrugma’ is produced below:

I turn the wheel of the two laws- Temporal and Spiritual. I am the supreme refuge of all. I am the spiritual ruler of glorious Drukpa. I am the subduer of those who seek to falsify the teaching of Drukpa school. I set the seal of protection of all writings like the Goddess of learning. I am the secred source of moral precept. I am the origin of unlimited thoughts. I confound those with false view. I am the fountain head of the power of Debate. Where is the man who never tremble before me? I annihilate the hordes of evil beings. Where is the strong man that can bear up against my power? I am mighty in speeches that expands religion. I am wise in all science. I am the divine manifestation spoken of by the superior ones and I am the destroyer of false incarnations.

It can be said to be his fate that after his prayer to the guardian deities in Bhutan, both Tsang Deb and his wife died in Tibet. When he heard the news of Tsang Deb’s death, Shabdrung saw accurate time to overflow his power and miracles so that he could gain more popularity and confidence in Bhutan. His real words of Ngachudrugma are in Dzongkha.

If anyone wants a good introduction to the early political ambitions of the Dalai Lama and Thupten Norbu, you should check out some of the declassified releases from the US State Department:
I do not have declassified files from the KGB. Only stories from Thupten Norbu, who always flew via Moscow to Mongolia.

http://www.state.gov/www/about_state/history/vol_xxx/337_343...

yup. ignore the old geezer monk tossed out on the streets. what is he compared to a "Nobel laureate"?

Akhutonpa: For some reason all of the comments after "Giggles" disappeared lastnight. I've already contacted France 24 about it because I also thought stuff was being deleted, but they said they have no record of any deletions and they're looking into it --- probably a server error or something. Anyway, I sent them a cache copy of all the messages in case they can't retrieve them from their end.

"When Catholics have an issue on their religious faith, whose authoritiety do they look to, the political leaders or the Vatican? What the Dalai Lama has advised is his right. It is the right of the Shugden followers not to follow him. You cannot have both ways."

you are absolutely right. tenzin gyatso or any lama can advise. the point is that he's done and is doing more (much more) than "advice". he's got monks kicked out of their monastery. some of these are old elderly monks who have been monks since they were young kids. he's got the lay refugee community frothing like rabid dogs chasing the dorje shugden practitioners, completely destroyed the harmony under which they used to live together as ONE tibetan community.

i'd like to ask if the world of catholics would accept the Pope declaring one day, that the worship of Mother Mary is henceforth banned. no debate, no questions, no discussions. all those who refuse to obey will be excommunicated and will have to leave not only the Church but also the community they have lived in their whole lives. Even if you have no money, no other home, you still have to get out. it's my way or the highway.

Now is that the way, a venerated true spiritual leader behaves? no appeal, no right of recourse? no justice? are these the pillars of democratic principles?

Your voiceover translation and transcript of the Dalai Lama's comments to Shugdenists do not correspond to anything the Dalai Lama is actually saying. Please post the full and actual words of the Dalai Lama, and if u can't find an honest translator I'll help you.

if you condemn the chinese for supressing religious freedom, you must also condemn HH Dalai Lama for suppressing religious freedom too. Otherwise you become a hypocrite! If you say Dalai Lama is right to ban Shugden then according to you it's ok for the chinese to suppress tibetans in Tibet and stop them from worshipping the Dalai Lama. Please educate yourself before you reply, harsh words have no meaning!

Since the Shugden folks don't have reason they are now resorting to diversions and talking about things like CIA and monks and governments. If we want to debate about the appropriateness of monks involving in politics, we can do that. At that level the issue is why are some fringe groups who are cult based trying to politicize a Tibetan spiritual issue? I have seen statements by Shugden leaders who talk about serfdom in Tibet and so forth. Who are they trying to please? May be their Chinese benefactors.

Repent all sinners for the kingdom of God is at hand.

I think the western world have to look the fact: we are now in 21st century, even we have a fever to love the Oriental Religion, how we could believe the religious people will govern a modern socity in a civilised way? Now the west just use those monks to over through the new government of Tibetan people, once they put their foot in the Tibet, the westerners will certainly would not tolerate those blood and power hungry monkes. Before 1959, the monks and the temple had absolute power over the Tibetans, do we really believe that the temple will give the live the Tibetans have enjoyed today? No no, never trust any monk who should live in a empety state rather envoles killing and bulling to their own people? If the monks such as Dalai Lama that good, why the Tibentan people abandoned them? Now the west is using Tibet to weaking China, it is a scam of the dead flames of Imperialiam!

It is interesting to see how the Shugden people are crying over whether it is a ban or not. What they should understand is that if they believe in the Dalai Lama, then it is his advice and they should follow it. If they do not believe in the Dalai Lama, then they can ignore it and go their own way. Nobody will stop them from practising their ritual. That is in every religious tradition. If you do not agree with the master, you withdraw from the tradition. But Shugden people, led by misguided Westerners want to have their cake and eat it too. We should ban them on this.